Katherine Nwanorue

In this week's episode, Katherine Nwanorue shares how she landed her first job as an SEO down to the nitty gritty of ‘job-hunting like a job’ and how to prepare and dress for the interview - even as a videoconference. We also find out what inspires Katherine and what empowers her to be the brilliant woman she is today.

You can connect with Katherine through her LinkedIn, Twitter and website.

Follow Women in Tech SEO on Twitter.

Hi, it's Isaline. I'm an SEO consultant based in Switzerland. And today, we are talking with Katherine, and she's going to share her story about when she landed her first job. Welcome, Katherine. Thanks for joining me.

Thank you so much for having me, Isaline. 

So, Katherine has a blog. You can find her at techseojournal.com. She got into SEO from a mentorship program with Allied De Sales, and that was in collaboration with the Freelance Coalition from Developing Countries that Chima Mmeje organizes. 

Katherine, you currently work as an SEO specialist at Fusion Inbounds, right? And also, I've seen you love gardening. Fun fact also, you were a content writer, this is one thing we have a common, before you took part in this mentorship program. You mentioned on social media that you found a job shortly after the mentorship program and the freelance coalition program. Tell us like how did it go? What's happened? 

Okay. We rounded up the Freelance Coalition for Developing Countries and we led up the Tech SEO mentorship around, I think it was the first week of August or around the second week. Initially, most of us were to be paired with some companies as interns. But it didn't work out for me. I really had to find a job. I was usually at the finishing line, and it didn't make sense to just give up at that point. So I really had to put all my efforts into looking for a job. I literally did this by thinking of job haunting as an actual job itself, right? I had a spreadsheet where I dropped everything about my job hunt. I created columns for the job, each job I applied to, the person of contact, the status of the application, the date of contact, and how I found the job. So it was a mix of cold emailing and a mix of actually applying for jobs that were open. I applied for, I think, 14 jobs in total. And the eighth one clicked. 

I love how you are very practical with the spreadsheet and following up on the process. How did you do it? Because sometimes, we hear, "Oh, you have to show a portfolio when you apply," all this kind of thing. But when you start, of course, you don't have a portfolio yet. How did you manage this? 

That was actually a really big challenge for me. As you mentioned, as a beginner, you don't really have much experience and everything. You can say you know how to do some stuff, but in actual sense, you've not really done it. Initially, during the mentorship program, I had a blog. The blog I talked about where I was writing a couple of things about what I've done. I was experimenting with a friend's website. I think the first post I made was about page speed optimization. I experimented on their webpage and got mobile speed from, I think the 40s to the 90s. It was a big day for me at the time, and I wrote down the steps and everything I had done. 

Then, I also made another post on how I found them 404 pages. There was costing a company around, I think $500 or $1,000 more. I really can't remember. So I just posted all that there. And during the mentorship, I was also sharing my journey. 

From going from knowing nothing about technical SEO to knowing just a bit. So it was like showing the community like, "Okay. This is my journey and this is how far I've come." So I added the link to this blog on my social media, profiles into the CV. I can remember that at least three people I reached out to for the job actually complimented me and said that they reached out because they liked what I was doing on my blog, and it really showed I had potential. 

Was it a simultaneous thing? Like, you were job hunting, at the same time as you were trying stuff out on the blog and writing article or --? 

No, it was one at the time. We finished up the mentorship program first. As I was doing the mentorship, I was writing those things. Then, at the end of the mentorship, I started applying for and referencing those things I did during the mentorship on my CV. 

So you really used the opportunity and the work you did during the mentorship to apply.

Yes, that's right. 

Excellent. You mentioned the spreadsheets where you listed the job you wanted to apply to. How did you choose the companies? What appeals to you? 

I had some requirements I was looking out for. The first was, each day, I had to apply for a certain number of jobs, right? For me, it was three, and that's a bit low. It's a bit on the low side, but I focused on three because I really wanted to go for the jobs that gave me the best chance of landing them rather than just casting a wide net. But this is what I thought was really good for me.

I also had things I was really looking out for in a job. We had to have more requirements on the technical side rather than the content side. It also had to be 100% remote. I did send some jobs, they were remote in the United States, remote in the United Kingdom board. I'm in Nigeria, a developing country. I didn't have that opportunity to migrate to other country. So the job had to be 100% remote. It had to be an entry-level job or a junior job. It had to be a job that was more on the technical side. So, I tailored my application to each employee/employer's requirements and that's how I went to. 

There was great deal of awareness before you actually started the job hunts. Like you had your list of criteria, process of what you wanted to do.

Yes.

That's really interesting that you took this leap of faith to go for technical job where you were not a junior on the content side. You could have gone for content SEO and had wide experience already. Why this choice? 

I like to say I fell in love with technical SEO. The choice is I really loved technical SEO. Maybe a lady did a great job and she made us all -- in all our minds, we just had to land a job that had more technical requirements. It was really great. I wanted to transition totally from the content side to the technical SEO side. So, I just wanted to give it a shot. If I've come this far in the mentorship, it does make sense to see to the end rather than just stick to the familiar territory for me. That's how I looked at it. 

That's interesting. And it echoes, actually Jo, who is in another podcast that also mentioned this idea of grabbing the opportunity and going really to the end of it and really trying everything.

Yes. That's like. For me, it was not, "I really need to get this." I said, job hunting for me was an actual job for me. I made it a job. It was something I, at the end of the day, it happens. I think, "Oh, did you get to this particular number of applications in a day? Have you checked the status of the application? Have you done this?" It was a full-time job for me at that moment because I knew it was really important for me to land a job at that moment. 

And how long did it take the actual job hunt? 

It took two weeks, three weeks tops. Two weeks and a few days. 

That's fast. Congrats! That's awesome.

Thank you. 

Yes. You really put the effort out there.

I did. This was really cool. 

But how did you manage? Did you have a good mood all the time? Was it awesome? 

No. 

Oh, how did it go? 

No, no, no! It was not awesome all the time. Trust me. Most of my colleagues at the time had started their internship in different companies. Yes, it was a bit of a downer for me because you are happy for them, but at the same time, you feel so sad because we really can't join them in that experience, right? I think three that didn't have an internship at that point. It was just like it's just us against the world then. 

To me, I was having high moments and really low moments. So one moment, I'm motivated. Like, "I need to do this." Then, the next moment, I'm really feeling so sad. Especially when I don't hear back from most of these companies I reached out to. But I really had great support. That really helped me to get through the moment. So, yeah, it was not all cheery and happy moments and stuff. I really had down moments, too. 

As you mentioned, when looking for jobs, sometimes you don't hear back and sometimes you have rejection letters. How did you deal with that and still carry on? 

I'm an overthinker, actually. So one rejection mail can seem like, "Oh, I'm not good enough for this. Definitely, if they're saying they don't want me, then I'm not doing this anymore." But I think all really helped was looking at it like something I needed to do. At the end of the day, whether I had one rejection or two ghosting, the next day, I just know I have to reach three applications whether I wanted to or not. It was just something I had to do. So, I was not really trying to soak up in the mood and stuff. I just had to keep moving.

Yeah. I love how you reframed for yourself, you know, the actual job hunting. You were like, "Oh, job hunting is a job." And then, "Oh, this is not me they reject." It's just happening, and you just go. It's really impressive, this awareness, to go on.

Yes. 

Because you put your heart and soul sometimes in the application letters, right? 

Yes. And some jobs, you're really too into them. Like, you can literally see yourself in that company and you're so excited and stuff. There was one I reached out to and they aren't hiring at that moment. But they told me that they were considering hiring a junior SEO on board. They were still thinking about the deliberation. I got an offer. I actually got an offer. But I told them, "Okay, let me get back to you by the end of the day." I think it was either the next day or so. But when I got back there, I was like, "Okay, I would really like to go ahead with this." They were like, "Sorry, we changed our mind. We are not really..." Yes. God, that was so… I can't even explain it, but yeah. 

Oh, that's terrible. 

Yes, it was. It really was. 

Did you choose mainly an agency-side type of job or did you also try to go for in-house type of job? What was your preference? 

I wasn't really looking at agencies or in-house. I was just looking for a job at the moment, to be honest. It just had to be a remote job, and it had to be a job in the United States or United Kingdom or Canada because the SEO industry is not really developed in my country. Like, the pay is not ideal and the working conditions are not really cool. So, I wasn't even considering. What I was just considering was the region. It had to be in the United States, it had to be in the United Kingdom, or it had to be in Canada. And, it had to be a junior or entry-level. It didn't matter if it was agency side or in-house. Or if I did, I would've preferred an agency, which thankfully I got because I knew I was going to get more experience on the agency side.

What do you see for yourself? Do you have in your mind a set plan of how long you're staying in that job and what's the next step? Or how do you vision? 

Right now, I don't really have a set plan. I've not been there for long. I started towards the end of August last year. So, it's still early days for me, but I've not really made any concrete plans.

For folks who are currently looking for a job, we know that unfortunately, that's the case for lots of people. What do you advise? What would you tell them? 

So, for beginners especially, I would say, you don't have any experience to fall back on but that shouldn't stop you from really applying for jobs. You can just do the same thing I did, which is show potential, show what you can do. You can experiment with a friend's website; you can experiment with yours. Just do something that shows that, "Oh, if I'm given the chance, I can do more." 

Also, you can go out to look at job ads like on Indeed, or that there are job ads. If you are, for instance, looking for a job more on the content SEO side, then you should look at the requirements, the common requirements. Some could say, "Oh, we need someone that can at least do keyword reset." So look at those requirements and try to do just something later on that part. Write about it. Tweet about it. Write it on your LinkedIn. Because these are things that build up the trust. It makes it easy for people to take a chance on you. Show that you can do this and the rest will definitely align. That's what I would say. Just put yourself out there. 

There are many amazing women in the Women in Tech SEO channel. So you can also reach out to most of these people for mentorship or take advantage of these mentorship programs, and really build relationships, valuable relationships with people. So when an opportunity comes forward -- and thanks, Isaline, because you really did me a solid on the podcasting. When an opportunity comes forward, these people can have you in mind for something like that. So, networking and putting yourself out there.

For people who look specifically for a job that is not in their country, but because that adds a layer of complexity, right? How would you help, what would you advise for people in this situation? 

Okay. The first is, know where to look for the jobs. For me, I was looking on Indeed. But turning it down to specific locations I was interested in. I was also looking on Twitter ideas. You can use search operators. They still work the same on Twitter. So you could be like technical SEO, plus "apply" or "join us." Then filter through those jobs to see specific regions. 

Then, try to interact with people to understand what they're looking for. Maybe they need a junior but have specific requirements or how they do things in that specific country. Try to really understand how it works and how the incentive process works and stuff like that. And then, try to reverse engineer that. Like, "Okay. So we basically like to have all two interviews and we do this this way." Then, just try to prepare yourself for that. 

Or, you've noticed that people from this particular company or a region, someone have suited like, "Oh, for juniors, you also look for culture fit assessments rather than skills." Then you have to just go to the company you're thinking of applying to and check their values. Does it align with yours? If yes, then you are better prepared for the interview. You know how to position yourself and how the job is going to go. That's really important. Do your research. 

I hear there is a great deal of research and analysis. You mentioned actually already, what was my next line of questions. Tell us more about after sending the application about the interviewing process. How is it most of the time? Like, how many interviews? Do you have tests? What happens? 

There are usually two steps of interview. At least, that's what I went through. The first is just to talk to you, to understand the vibe. Like, "Okay, this is what we're looking for and let's just see if you know how it works. Do you know how…?" Like a couple of questions about the job itself and sometimes also skill and culture fit assessment, like I said. They'll ask you some value-based questions like for example, what are three values you really prioritize or to understand if you're a team player or an independent worker?

After the first interview, if you do make it to the second interview, is mostly tests. So I was given a paid test task in the second one and it was to do a basic site audit. At that point, they're not really looking for something wow complex. They just really want to assess what you can do. At least, that's why I did this from the audit. So I did a basic audit. Like, what I found on the sites, why it is important, and what we can do about it. So that's how I did. I arranged them on what I thought at the time was really important, and I submitted that and one of them clicked. So yes, first interview's based on cultural fit based questions, and second interview is mostly a test task or a further interview with some people on the team.

I understand what is there to prepare for the second interview. Like, you know, this is technical stuff, this is knowledge. However, the first interview, that sounds really daunting. What type of questions? When people say cultural fit, it can say everything and anything. In your experience, is there always the same type of questions? Can you actually prepare for this first interview?

You can vote to get -- it would be really difficult to know the specific question that would be asked. But I've noticed that most of these questions have -- they have a recurring theme. They're mostly around the values of the company, like I mentioned. If they are maybe, let's say, result-focused, for instance, they would likely ask a question like, "Oh, I know you're junior. But if this is this case, how would you go around and check in results for this? Or, what would you do?" Sometimes, they could ask you questions about, "Let's say you have an issue with this. Who do you go to report to for this issue?" Something like that. I try to know how you work in it. And if you say, "Oh, I'll do it myself," or "I'll really go to my supervisor for answers or to know more about it." So, questions like that. Just check the values of the company and go more like, try to prepare more around questions around them, work processes, how you would tackle work, time management, working with the team, and stuff like that. Those are things to concentration on for the cultural fit part.

All right. Okay. That's much more reassuring. So, it's really about work processes and sort of behavior when faced with the challenge. These types of questions. 

Yes. 

Right. And did you prepare in advance? Like, did you do dry run with your friends asking your questions?

I did. Well, it was just a minor one. Before each interview, I wrote down some potential questions I think I would be asked. So things like this. I did a question and answer myself. So, if I ask myself a question, I'll answer it. Sometimes, I do tend to really ramble when I'm nervous and stuff. So I did those wrongs to make sure I don't go off points or say something totally out of the box. I'll time myself most of these times to know how far or how long I stay on a particular question. 

Then, I think I literally practice a few days to the interview, then the night before the interview, and on the morning of the interview itself. Also, I usually, most times have a couple of questions I ask after each interview. 

So, when you say "practiced," you were in front of your computer, you were recording, or in your bathroom in front of the mirror?

In front of the mirror. That's what I usually do, in front of the mirror. 

I have another very practical question. Because you have to present yourself the best way possible for a remote job, so the setting is actually kind of similar to this podcast now, is there something precise to do with your face, with your clothes, with your hair? Because this is kind of stressing, you know? 

Oh my God, yes! My sisters, they have actually told me in the past, I gesture a lot. In the early days, when I'm talking, I used to do this all with my body. But yeah, I learned to position the camera just above my chest area. So, if I'm gesturing, this is not going all over the places, it's just below here. 

I also bring out what I have to wear for that day ahead of time. Because at home, it can be a bit tempting to just stay in your house clothes and stuff but that could affect how you present yourself. But if you dress up, like as if you're actually going out, it does help you to compose yourself a bit. You have to really prepare for everything. Like, if there is an eventuality that, "Oh, this might go out of this," or my laptop would not work or something, just prepare ahead. So 30 minutes, or at least an hour before the interview, I've already set up stuff. I'm already dressed and I'm practicing like, "Okay, this is how it goes," and this is stuff. So if you're practicing in the mirror, that's another good thing. You will see -- or recording yourself, you could see if like me, you put your hand all over the place, or if you are too stiff and stuff. Yes, you could use the opportunity to get things up and really make an impression.

Right. So, you dressed yourself and prepared yourself like an interview in person 

Yes. 

With the shoes and everything. 

Without shoes! No. Without shoes, please. 

You mentioned the height of the screen. So you have books under your laptop or an external camera just for it to be higher?

Yeah, it's a webcam. I positioned it a bit higher just from my chest area.

Oh, right. 

Yes. To the top.

Excellent. Okay. There is really a real deal of preparation for each step. Did you do some follow-up? I mean, after the interview. Is there a rule? Like, "Oh, don't send five minutes. But wait two hours before sending an email, or something like this.

Okay, so the follow-up hours. I was actually wondering the follow-up hours. It was a, "Does it seem right to follow up with this person?" In some cases, I didn't follow up. For some jobs I really wanted, if I knew someone that works in the company, I reach out. There was one I applied for, I knew someone on the Women in Tech SEO Slack channel that worked there. I reached out to her and told her that I had submitted an application the previous two weeks, and I had not heard back from anybody. If she could help check the status of my application. She was really nice about it. She did help. So she contacted her manager who got back to me the following week and told me that yes, they've seen my application, but they were not hiring. 

So, yes, in some cases, following up does help you get some closure on, "Okay. Are they good or is it that they are just not hiring?" Because like I mentioned, I was not just applying for jobs that had an opening. I was cold emailing to anything that works. I was just putting all of them out there and following up did help me to get closure in some cases. But in some cases, I didn't follow up. I just don't know why I didn't, but I didn't follow up. 

Maybe it was just not the right fit, you know? 

Yeah, likely. 

That's interesting. It means that instead of actually talking, sending an extra email to the person who interviewed, you check the people page to see if there's someone you know that you can contact more personally.

Yes, exactly. Because chances are, there might be someone in your next from that works there. So it would make sense to leave a chance to the person and find out what's really going on. Rather than to just send, and maybe you might never get a response. So, this way, you do have a higher chance of them getting back to.

Smart. Excellent. And there are like 5,000 of us in the community. So, there's great chance someone is in the company. Excellent. 

Yes, that's true. 

Now, thank you for all of this insight. I see that time is already going fast. As we are here to support each other, do you have something recently, a tool or book, or something you do that really made a difference in your growth that you'd like to share with us?

I wouldn't say it's not really a book or an article. It's some excerpts that talked to us during the mentorship program, and also something I've picked up from people around me. I'll sum it up in a sentence. It's basically doing supersedes saying. 

Many times, we talk about stuff and make plans about doing something, and we talk about it over and over. But at the end of the day, we know we don't really get to do it. But I realized that you can only get results when you do something. You can only get results when you take action, rather than when you say something. One thing that has really helped me is to say yes to any opportunity that aligns with my goals and values. If it aligns with my goals, what I'm looking to achieve, and my values, I say yes. I commit to it, and just do it.

Because there were like months back, at least a year ago, I would've thought of 1,000 reasons why this podcast wouldn't work. Why wouldn't go on it? But once I commit to it, I can't freak. I can freak out later. But I've committed to it, so I have to see it through. So if you're listening to this podcast, just pick one thing. It doesn't have to be something great. It could be making a social media post. It could be reaching out to someone in your network, and actually, they have an opening. It could be finishing a long forgotten call. Just pick one thing and see it through. 

Excellent. Thank you. I love this. I actually thought you would say something like, "Oh, if you stretch up, go and garden, and plant something," you know.

Oh, my God. No.

You can though. 

No. I think this goes because it has really helped me a lot in the past few months. Yeah. I think it's really valuable to someone out there. 

Excellent. We love doers. Of course, we do love doers. 

Thanks a lot for joining me for this interview and also for sharing, very honestly, the thing I ask about clothes and hair and stuff. Because, nobody cares to really ask. Whereas, when you have an interview, it's very stressful. 

It is.

Thanks for sharing. Of course, if you're listening to us and you want to ask further questions to Katherine, you'll find her on Twitter, on social media, and I will link all of that let me remind you of her website, it's techseojournal.com.

Thank you everyone for being here. Thank you, Katherine, for joining me today. 

Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.

That was WTSPodcast. We're on a mission to amplify women in the SEO industry. If you don't know us yet and you just stumbled on this podcast, go head to our website. We have many different initiatives such as workshops, and coaching, and mentoring, and a newsletter. Being part of a community of 5,000 women is something exceptional. Trust me on this one and just join us. 

I was your host, Isaline. Thank you for being here, and see you next time. Bye.

Bye.