Veruska Anconitano

Veruska is a Multilingual SEO & Localization Consultant with 20+ years of experience with brands wanting to enter non-English-speaking markets. With a background in sociology & sociolinguistics, she follows a culturalized approach to SEO and Localization. In this episode, she discusses the benefits and opportunities that emerge from years of experience, while not neglecting to discuss the challenges that such accrued wisdom may entail. There's a necessity to focus on societal stereotypes and false impressions regarding ageing in the workplace. For Veruska, part of our mission should be challenging these preconceived notions and reframing the discourse on ageing. She explains how mentorship and the exchange of knowledge play a role in capitalizing on career longevity. We also find out what inspires Veruska and what empowers her to be the brilliant woman she is today.

You can connect with Veruska through her LinkedIn and Twitter/X and her Website.

Hello, everyone. Welcome. This is the WTSPodcast. We are on a mission to amplify brilliant women's voices. I am Isaline Muehlhauser, and I am your host today. We welcome Veruska Anconitano. Welcome, Veruska. 

Hello, Isaline. Hello, everyone. Nice to be here, and thanks for having me. 

Thank you for taking the time to join me for this podcast. We have an important topic today. We are discussing aging in the workplace. We wonder, is it an opportunity or a challenge? You are a multilingual SEO and localization consultant, with over 20 years of experience with brands wanting to enter non-English speaking markets. You have a background in sociology and sociolinguistics. I think we could not have had a better guest with such a background in sociology to discuss this topic. You mentioned, when we prepared this interview, that talking with other individuals, all the SEOs, within and outside the community, you have observed flagrants. Like, a lack of age diversity, particularly among women.

Yes. It's something that I've been observing and studying for quite a while. I had this feeling, and then I was approached because I do a lot of work in gender studies, sociology, and social linguistics. It came up to me so many times. So many people reported this lack of diversity, especially for women. And, when I say lack of diversity, I mean aging diversity in conferences, events, writing opportunities, and job opportunities, which is the biggest problem. 

So, the moment you are 40 years old, it's kind of like a lot of doors close to you. If you're a consultant like me, you have your own path. You have your own clients, you have your word of mouth guiding you, and you have your experience on the ground. But, for people that work in-house, and very often, especially these days, lose their job because of redundancy, because of whatever happens, it is extremely, extremely hard to go back to where they were. If they are a woman over 40 and over 50, I don't know. I don't even want to discuss over 50 because it's an even bigger problem. I think we are really, really behind many other industries as SEOs and tech. I think it's a big, big issue because there are young people, but there are also wise people, like me.

What are the benefits? What do you see someone over 40 can, also older? Because I have been discussing this topic with older professionals. What are for you, in your eyes, the benefits that you can bring to a company to a client? 

I think there are two types of benefits. The first one is mental and wellbeing, mental wellbeing. When you are of a certain age, you have seen a lot of things, professionally and personally. So, you have this background of experience that guides you in choosing wisely and choosing insightfully. It's the same when we are in college or in high school and we have an exam, and we have this fear that everything is going to fall down if we fail the exam. Then, after high school, after college, you say, "Okay, it was just an exam. It didn't change my life. My life is going the way it should go and the way I want it to go." It's exactly the same thing. When you collect such big things, regardless of what you have done in your life, you know how to understand the priorities, unnecessary things, and unnecessary dramas, which is a huge thing. And also, how to approach people, colleagues, professionals, and stakeholders in a different way. You develop soft skills that are really beneficial. 

Career-wise, more professionally-wise, you have to keep yourself with the knowledge you have failed a lot. Especially, for example, in SEO, if you started very early, you were one of the few, the very first people doing this and not knowing that you were doing this. You have made mistakes. You have corrected the mistakes made by others by making other mistakes. 

You've built habits and you've built skills on top of these mistakes that help evolve, help develop skills, that people just starting up don't have because they cannot have. So, there are the benefits of having a career, having been more than 40, is that you make mistakes, correct mistakes, and also learn on your own over the years. What works for you, what works for your client, how things work in SEO, for example, how this works, tech in SEO works, how this team works, and so on.

Is it on us to remind our clients or make part of our personal branding on LinkedIn writing posts to remind people, "Oh, yeah. Today, I approach my professional life with calmness because I have seen all the things, so I'm able"? Like you said, no-drama person, and that sounds very true to me when at the beginning, everything seems so important. Oh, my god! Today, it's like, "Yeah, I know I can tackle this." Is it on us to make this a part of our branding or remind people? 

I strongly believe it is. Especially in an industry where everything is so rushed and and jumping on the first thing that happens to create drama over drama. It really is up to us to say things can be managed because we are equipped and experienced to manage this failure, this issue, this update, this whatever happens. I definitely think that. I don't feel that it's part of our branding, but it should be part of our proposition. It's part of our USP, unique selling proposition, having the wisdom of saying, "I know I can do it." It doesn't have to be so dramatic. You don't have to spend time worrying about something that can be fixed. And, if it cannot be fixed, it's not the end of the world. We will find another way to get to the point where we want to get. So, yes, it's up to us. Consciousness. It's part of our unique selling proposition, definitely.

Let's imagine I'm a client. You would intentionally say something like, how would you phrase that in good words? Pretend I'm the client. Tell me like, how you would say it.

I'm a very direct person, so I would never phrase it in a way that pleases them. I would just show examples. If there's an issue with a page or something, or even if something's not ranking, I can show examples of things done in the past for someone else. Because, at the end of the day, that's the beauty of being older or being having experience, that you have collected so many examples that it's easier to show proof of what you've done and what you can do. Rather than just say, "Oh, don't worry. We will follow best practices. No worries. I practice Zen. I'm a yoga person. You are in good hands." That's happened to me already, and that's how I fix it. I think I can fix this for you as well." Or simply say, "It happened to me. I fixed it. I tried to fix. It may not work, but let's try." So, showing results, and proof is the best way to prove your experience, to challenge your client, and to challenge also your colleague if you work with us.

Someone once told me that clients would often work with someone, and consult with their own age. Someone told me that as you grow older, you might have clients because you are going to find your peers. Would you agree with this idea?

Up to a certain degree, I agree. I was consulting for a big brand I think one year, a couple of years ago. I was one of the oldest, and it felt super weird. Because it's exactly like you go with friends. I like to use this analogy. It's like, you go with friends more or less your age, or a bit older. It's very rare that someone chooses to go with people that are younger, a lot younger because there is very little in common. I mean, the professional world is the same. I found myself having to explain things that I shouldn't explain. I remember vividly what I had to explain what was released by Google, an algorithm that was released by Google six, seven years ago. People were like, "Oh, okay. Wasn't this already there? Isn't this something that it's a given now?" No, it's not. 

You have a different background and you cannot pretend. You cannot ask these younger people to speed up things because they will reach a point where you are now. But, at the same time, you cannot slow yourself down. So, it's not a block collaborating with people who are younger than you. It's kind of natural that you attract people your age. You attract companies that are aligned with the value, and it's the same thing. I sometimes feel fairly uncomfortable when someone approaches me, and they are very young, and they just started. It's like, "How do I manage this relationship?" It doesn't happen often enough because again, I'm at a point where my clients are almost my age or older. But, when it happens, it's strange. It's very strange because there are two different levels. So, what I think is that it should be [unin] and we would have to waste time in telling them, "No, no, no. Stop." 

Do you think that niching down your service or the industry you work for is a good opportunity to sort of leverage your experience versus having a broader service? How do you leverage your experience? Is niching down the secret of it? 

It's part of the secret. I am a big, big believer in niching down. I'm super niche. Super, super niche. I've not even considered myself a full SEO person, because I'm not in reality. A niching down is something that you can start immediately when you start in SEO. It's something that usually comes up after a while when you start to understand, "I like this. I don't like this." But also, most importantly is that, "I know this because I have a background and I can leverage this." I feel that niching down is the subject of many, many things. From being unique to being heard when you have to prove your value to find clients, which is for consultants is the most important thing, but it's also one of the biggest things for people in-house. A lot of companies are looking more and more for specialized people rather than generalist people. So, it is a secret. 

Of course, it's challenging because you think, "I like this. I know how to do this. It's easy." It's never easy. I think that being experienced in managing this, managing your expectations; managing what you can offer and how you can offer; managing your availability in doing something and not doing something else; and also, experience, plus niching down, allows you to stay strong, no. That at the beginning of your career, you will never say, "No, no. I don’t do this." You will do everything. The more you age professionally, the more you start seeing, "No, I don’t do this thing." For ethical reasons, for professionalism, for whatever you want. 

Is there a typology of clients, projects, or company challenges that are better covered by someone with a lot of experience? What is a good match? Because we're always thinking client's fit, is my skill a good fit for the client's needs? Can you tell me a little bit more? Is there a type of client's needs that we get better at, that our USP better match?

I think there's no secret formula or not even a formula. For me, for example, speaking of my experience, it all starts with aligning my interest in what they do. And also, even having a proper understanding on what they want to do. It's not really, well, in my specific case, sometimes, it's also the industry. But, it's mostly understanding what they want. I don't think there is really a specific formula to identify the perfect client. The formula is understanding what they want, and being honest with you first to try to understand if you can deliver what they want, if you are the right person, or if you are not. For me, it never starts from -- well, this company could be my niche, it could be my fit. It's mostly like anyone can be, aside from [unin] industries, but it depends on what's their goal, what's their value, it's what I can offer if I can offer something. 

I've heard sometimes people say that as you have more experience, you get better at strategizing. And so, you tend to shift from delivery to strategies and analysis and to tackling maybe bigger companies with more complex internal issues of this type of thing. Would you agree with that?

In my experience, 100% yes. I know a lot of peers and colleagues that have decided not to go big. They have decided, "I want to be the best person for small businesses in this specific area, in this specific niche. I am experienced to bring this small business from zero to hero." And, that's okay. Again, the experience brought me to a place where now, I'm not the person who does things, but the person who strategizes, the person who guides, the person who decides on the things to do for companies that are much more structured. Even because I, and thousands of people like me, have the soft skills and also the credibility behind me so that I don't have to sell myself. I can say I can do it. I know I can do it. That is super, super important. That's a big, big step in one person, one woman-man career. 

So, when you actually are seen as credible, because you have references, because you have proof of what you have done. I think we have to move away from thinking that if you are successful online, then you are successful, and then you're good. It's not. That equation doesn’t work. You understand this, when the more you grow, the more you understand that. It's two different things. I definitely think that there are a lot of opportunities for wise people -- that's how I call myself, a wise person, to step into big projects, big clients, and even big companies without disregarding people who choose to go the opposite way. Because again, the more experience you have, the more suitable you are for certain projects, and the better you can perform. 

Do you see other opportunities that come with experience?

I think one of the things that people don’t really, really appreciate much is a shift in career. It's something that I think deserves its own chapter. Because you start in a certain way, and then life brings you in another direction. When you are younger, you are supposed to think when young, it can shift anytime. But, the reality is that when you have experience, you have experience in multiple fields, multiple things, that's when you can really shift career. Not just being an SEO executive, but becoming an SEO director. It's just like moving, for example, from SEO to CRO, moving from SEO to something else, moving from paid to SEO. It's just like allowing yourself to be more flexible because your mindset knows how to adapt and knows how to approach things. Of course, it doesn't always work. Because if it was something so sure, everybody would be doing it. Really, that's one of the things that we should put our effort into. Not just to be confined to something just because we are at an age where our career is defined until we die. 

We can shift and move and just be adaptable and bring our expertise to something else, to someone else. I know people who completely decided to move from content to something else. I know a girl who decided to become a programmer. So, she moved from content, started to do programming, and went to a company for a kind of internship. And now, she's actually shifting, and she's 46, 47 years old. So, it's something that I think should be more appreciated and much more, give much more thought to this. 

You mean that our experience builds cognitive structures and knowledge, but the working environments that we can actually apply to another working environment doing all the tasks, but we need to trust ourselves that we can -- that this is transferable. Like, when you know how to deliver to satisfaction, it doesn't really matter what to deliver. It's just that you understand clients' needs and how to do the thing. 

Yes, correct. One of the things that I often think about is when you align that successful people who are 40 years old that started a company. And now, they do this and do that. He still has this idea that after 35, it is time to put everything that you believe can stop like this. You have to believe in yourself, and you also need to understand if it's sustainable in the long term. Because passion doesn't mean, it doesn't always lead to something. So, there's an analysis to do. I believe that our experience, say our cognitive function, at the same time, we are really analytical in choosing if we want to shift, how we want to shift. Is it sustainable? Is it something that we are going to regret? One of the biggest shifts is moving from SEO to SEO project manager, to SEO product manager. It seems something that is small, but it's a change and it is something that is sustainable. People who completely shift from the SEO field to something else, just to realize, "Yeah, it was just something that I thought was good, but it's not." So, it really requires an analysis. Even the market, even what you can bring. Cognitive adaptation helps, but analysis helps as well. 

What advice would you give a woman around 40 who is slightly a bit worried about career longevity, and who doesn't want to be seen as having the current knowledge and not being outdated? What advice would you give to this person?

I think that the very first thing is mostly to define who you are. I'm coming back to the niche thing. Define who you want to be. For whom do you want to be that professional and why? And also, that's something that applies to the young, but most of all, to us over 40. Stop comparing yourself with others. and stop following massively everything that happens around you, professionally. Develop your own voice. That's the time to do it. Because you have experience, you have knowledge, you have proof, you have previous clients, you have everything with you. You don’t have to listen to this and that, and then decide, "Oh. I'm going to worry about this. Or maybe if I do this, it's better." So, trusting your voice, that doesn't mean being visible, being always present online at all. It's just like being in the right place at the right moment when you're going to take on things. I think it's the best thing to do. 

The other thing that I would highly recommend, whether it's consultancies or in-house agencies, companies, or whatever, is to become advocates for yourself and for women of your age. Become a mentor in your company and stress out for inclusivity programs, leadership training programs, for everything that can put wise people in front of younger people, and help them whenever they can. For example, putting in place a mentorship program where you become a mentor to younger people. But, do not discard also to becoming a mentee. Because we can learn a lot from people who are consuming, for example -- I, myself, I don’t consume social media much because I get bored, and that's just who I am. I need someone to explain to me how things, how younger generations search on social media could be very beneficial. It's mutual. Find your niche, find your unique voice. But also, become a leader. Become someone who advocates for inclusivity, and gender inclusivity. 

Thank you, Veruska. I love that. It also echoes another guest who spoke a lot about being intentional. So, it reminds me of that past conversation, and I feel like, okay, yeah. It's time to take a little bit of time. It's soon the end of the year. So, maybe we might have a little bit more time to slow down a little bit, and think about what it is we want for the next step. 

Well, thank you very much for being a guest on that podcast. Looking forward to the following conversation we're going to have, one with you and with others like you, listeners who are going to answer and follow up on what we've said today. Yes. Do check WTS website. If you've been listening to us, do check Veruska. Remind me. I'm sure you have a website and you’re easily findable. 

Yeah.

I'm going to add that in the description, so do get in touch. We are happy to follow up and to support you. If you listen to us today in any way, we can. We have lots of ideas. 

If you are not yet a member of the community, do join us. Over 7,000 women all over the world. You don't have to be a tech SEO to join. You don’t have to be widely experienced to join. What you need is to have an interest in SEO, and want to ask questions and share what you know. You are welcome. 

Thank you so much, Veruska, for being with me today. 

Thank you so much, Isaline, for having me.

It was wonderful to have you. See you soon everyone. Bye.